A public partner’s guide to podcasting

Posted by Victoria Bartle, Fuse Public Partner, with tips for guests from Cassey Muir, Fuse & NIHR School for Public health Research (SPHR) funded PhD Researcher from Newcastle University

Everyone seems to have a podcast these days and there are lots discussing research, but how many can say that they are totally led by the public? I have been participating in public involvement in research since 2016 and believe that it is a vital part of improving everybody’s health, but find that getting other people involved and informing the public about research projects is really difficult.

I was excited to be involved with the Fuse podcast Public Health Research and Me as I’ve wanted to start my own for a while now, and felt as if this would be a perfect opportunity to learn about podcasting and give it a try, as well as being part of creating a platform to help engage the public in research and hopefully increase awareness and involvement. I joined the podcast team made up mainly of other public partners and took part in some excellent training which went through equipment, hints and tips for selecting guests, how to phrase and deliver questions, different podcast formats, as well as recording and editing. I was buzzing after the training and keen to get started.

 

I was lucky enough to be selected to be the first host for the podcast and was matched with Cassey Muir, one of the Fuse researchers who is working with children and young people who have been affected by parental substance use. Her work is fascinating and I was soon enthralled reading everything I could to prep for the interview and come up with a very long list of questions. As brevity is not my forte the rest of the team helped to cut these down to around five or six questions which is about all that you need to create a 30 minute podcast.

We then had a pre-record meeting with Cassey, where we discussed the questions. Talking to her about her work helped me to edit and refine the questions for the interview. Once the questions had been finalised and approved by the podcast team and Cassey, we set a recording date.

I was quite nervous before the record. I’d been a panel member on a podcast before and had so many technical issues that I was really stressed and anxious by the time I managed to get everything sorted. So for this recording I made sure I had tried all of the equipment and was all set up with my notes, drinks, tissues and cough medicine…because of course I had a cold! Recording when one of the presenters keeps coughing is really difficult for the editor, but Cassey was a pro and kept pausing whenever I coughed so that we would have a second or two to edit it out. We talked for ages and the record went really well. I was able to bring in some of my own lived experience of the topic and this helped to make the conversation more natural and less like me firing questions at Cassey, although I did say “wow” and “that’s amazing” a lot which I was determined not to do as much the next time.

Now to the technical part! Although we had had some training on editing podcasts, the team decided to use an external editor as we wanted it to sound as professional as possible, and none of us were confident in using the software just yet. Listening to the edited version we were able to make requests for changes, but I felt that it generally sounded great, and asking to cut out all of my embarrassing “wows” was my own issue and not necessary. We had to write our bios to go with the podcast, an overview of what it was about, and make sure that the projects and references that we discussed were all available for the listeners to link to directly from the podcast page.

Going live was exciting, I sent the link to all of my friends and family, it was tweeted on the Fuse twitter feed and is also on the Fuse website so everyone can access it. We’ve had over 100 listens and the bonus video has had nearly 300 views so far. I’ve had lovely feedback from my friends and family who said they found it really interesting. My Mum was especially impressed as she now has something that she understands to tell people when she’s trying to explain what public involvement in research is and what I do.

Round two  

The second recording went a bit differently. I had loads of background information to read about Eugene Milne, his career history, his involvement in establishing Fuse, his role in public health and his recent MBE which was all very exciting. I had lots of questions about all of the different projects that he had been involved in, their impact on public health in the North East, as well as his plans for retirement, but during the pre-record chat I decided to take a more focused direction as his responses to some of the topics were just so interesting. We narrowed it down to his involvement in establishing Fuse, what his initial expectations were and how he feels it has developed over the past 15 years; the impressive results from the public health initiatives that he oversaw (including North East tobacco and alcohol control programmes Fresh and Balance); as well as responding to Covid-19 during his time as the Director of Public Health for Newcastle.

Again the public partner team reviewed the questions and the theme of the podcast and we went ahead with the recording. This time I didn’t have a cough which made recording much easier, but I still responded with lots of “wow’s” and “that’s amazing” as I found Eugene very engaging and his career so interesting. I then got myself a bit confused towards the end of the record. I’d skipped a question as it didn’t fit with how the conversation was flowing, but I wanted to come back to it at the end. I’d already said the outro lines so I had to pause for a second or two, ask the missed question, and then remind the editor to swap the order of the last two sections around. I was a bit embarrassed about this, but it was absolutely fine and you can’t tell in the final version.

Things don’t always go to plan

The third recording with PhD student Joanne McGrath has been different again. We had already decided to focus on one of Joanne’s current projects looking at women experiencing homelessness as it fitted in with International Women’s Day and an event that Fuse was hosting for the occasion. This meant that I had a bit less reading to do while prepping the questions this time. They were approved by the podcast team and Joanne, and she steered the direction of the podcast from the outset as she knows her research best and which areas are being focused on currently. The recording has been beset with challenges, technical issues, diary clashes and unavoidable life events that have meant that we have had to postpone the recording three times. Is it cursed!?

These challenges actually led us to writing this blog, as well as the hints and tips below. We have all learnt so much from the first three podcasts and as I pass the hosting responsibilities to the next public partner we wanted to make sure that we were learning from our experiences. At the point of writing this blog, we have now managed to record Joanne’s episode, so keep an eye out for it. Her work with women experiencing homelessness is so important and will benefit an often overlooked group of people by supporting positive changes in their lives.

Our top tips for podcasting

For hosts

Preparing for the podcast:

• Give yourself enough time to read through all of the guest’s work and discuss with them and the team the possible theme of the interview.
• Write down all the questions you can think of; you can always edit and rearrange the order later.
• Have a pre-record meeting with the guest; this helps you and your guest to feel comfortable, and to try out the microphone and recording platform. This can also help to define the questions and theme of the podcast.
• After the guest and the team have reviewed the questions and decided on five or six to use, arrange them in an order that should flow like a conversation.
• Write your own intro, a couple of sentences about yourself to introduce you to the listeners and practice this a few times so that you are familiar and comfortable saying it.
• Also practice the intro and outro sections that have already been created, changing some of the words if it fits better with how you speak.

The podcast recording:

• Login to the meeting for the record early, have everything you need set up around you, and make sure you have all devices on silent so you won’t be disturbed.
• Check the mic in advance, you may need a USB port to attach to your computer and headphones with a connector jack. If you use an Apple Mac (or similar) you may have to use a USB adapter.
• Place the mic approximately 15cm (6”) in front of you.
• Find a small quiet room that is preferably well furnished to absorb any echo.
• Have a little chat with the guest, try to make them feel comfortable and start when you’re both ready.
• Mute yourself if you need to cough, sneeze or drink etc.
• Avoid rustling any paper or notes that you may have prepared.
• Turn off non-essential devices using wifi and reduce the tabs/windows on your device. This will reduce the likelihood of buffering during the Zoom/Teams call.
• If you do cough, sneeze or make a mistake then pause for a second or two and start again (or mark by saying “edit point”), this gives the editor a space to remove the noise.

After the recording:

• Re-record any sections you feel necessary, or let the team know if you think a section will need to be moved, cut or edited and they can pass this on to the editor.
• Once the edited version comes back, with the “umms”, “aaahhhhs”, coughs (etc.) removed, you will be able to listen through and request any further edits that you’d like.
• Write a bio and provide a photo to go on the podcast platform.
• Help with any promotion through your own networks, and enjoy listening!

For guests

Preparing for the podcast:

• Identify and share your relevant publications, resources, and information with the host and podcast team, which allows them to focus the conversation and questions (e.g., do you want to provide a wide variety of resources or only those on a specific topic?).
• Help clarify any specific points of interest or themes you would like to get across about your work as this will help with determining relevant questions.
• Pre-record meetings and/or emails are helpful, which can take away some of the nerves by building a relationship with the host or testing out the equipment.
• Ask for a copy of the questions if you would like to make notes and think about your answers ahead of time.

The podcast recording:

• This should be/is a fun experience where you get to talk about your work with someone who is keen to listen and explore different topics with you. It is a great chance to discuss your research in a way that you might not normally and possibly from a different viewpoint, so try to ease into it and enjoy it. If you lose your train of thought or stumble over your words it is okay, that is the benefit of editing and not being live.
• If you have made them, have your notes to hand, either printed (but not rustling) or on the screen to help you remember important points that you want to make during the podcast.
• As this is meant to be somewhat conversational, remember to go with the flow of questioning as some of your answers may spark interesting follow-up questions that you are unprepared for.

After recording:

• Ensure you have provided links to the important items you discussed during the podcast, which can then be shared alongside the podcast.
• You get to listen/watch through the edited podcast before it goes live, which is your chance to highlight any changes you would like to be made (although the editing team do a fab job, so there may be no necessary changes at this stage).
• Once the podcast is live, this is a great opportunity to share your work and the podcast with relevant networks and/or on your social media.
• Enjoy listening or watching the podcast!

Feeling like an imposter? Learn to get comfortable with ambiguity

Peter van der Graaf, Fuse Knowledge Exchange Broker, Teesside University and Travis Sztainert, Knowledge Mobilization Specialist, Frayme

Do you ever feel like your lack of ability or knowledge is going to be exposed? In that case, you might suffer from Imposter Syndrome! Knowledge Mobilisers work across boundaries and are asked to perform tasks that they don’t feel “qualified” for, triggering feelings of anxiety and failure. What causes these feelings and how can we overcome them? In an attempt to answer these questions, we compared experiences across the pond by reflecting on our roles as Knowledge Mobilisers in Canada and in the UK. We argue that these feelings should not be avoided but harnessed by turning imposter syndrome into a useful repertoire for the role.

"Piled Higher and Deeper" by Jorge Cham www.phdcomics.com

In March the annual UK Knowledge Mobilisation Forum took place, which brings together practitioners, researchers, students, administrators and public representatives who are engaged in the art and science of sharing knowledge and ensuring that it can be used. This year, the Forum was held online for the first time, and one of the sessions was dedicated to interactive posters. Participants could preview posters in GoogleDocs and leave comments and questions for the presenters, who were later interviewed to respond to the feedback left on their posters.

In our poster, we explored why Knowledge Mobilisers are particularly prone to feelings of being an imposter. They work in a competitive specialist profession; everyone strives to be a guru, but at the same time their work occurs in the background. It often goes unrecognised if done well (and shows up particularly bad if it fails!) but is time-intensive with work often being unclear, making it feel like you’re not moving forward.

Our poster - see the full version here

Developing trusting relationships between knowledge producers and users often requires complex and lengthy conversations, which only increase the risk of being exposed as an imposter. At the same, there are limits to collaboration (not everybody wants to work together or share their knowledge), which can add to feelings of failing at your job as a knowledge broker.

Moreover, the role requires you to be a neo-generalist with varied expertise and, therefore, there is always more to learn. Organisational change and consequently personal change (the one certainty of working in the health and care sector) are always on the horizon, meaning that you have to continuously adapt your role. In addition, system changes often change the knowledge and evidence that is required by users and this increases transaction costs (time and resources spent on adapting knowledge) for boundary workers.

However, there is a lack of ‘professionalisation’ of the field and training is scattered: this can make you feel like you’re missing essential skills and knowledge. During the poster session we conducted a quick poll to ask how many participants had received formal training in knowledge mobilisation: 83% had not. Or as one of the participants summarised: Knowledge Mobilisation is a Cinderella service. Being undervalued by funders, universities and professional organisations means you are often faced with a lack of resources and unable to do your job. In fact, it is often expected that Knowledge Mobilisation can be done “off the side of the desk” or in addition to work as a researcher or policy maker. Thus, a paucity of time and space is set aside to adequately tackle complex issues.

To overcome these challenges, the first rule of Knowledge Mobilisation is that you need to be comfortable with ambiguity. Feeling like an imposter is not (in itself) bad, is a normal part of the learning process, and can be harnessed. Skills are most often developed on-the-job, and feelings of imposter syndrome can help drive you to learn more, do better, and be open to new concepts and experiences. Overconfidence can lead to a lack of insight into your weaknesses, which in turn can lead to actually becoming an imposter. Accept that you have shortcomings and areas for improvement. It’s okay not to know what you’re doing, or not to have all the answers. Think of yourself as an enthusiastic learner who is gaining experience and expertise - imposter syndrome will help you to stay humble.

Being open and honest about not having all the answers can actually be seen as a strength. As one participant pointed out in response to the poster: it helps to level power differences between partners by showing that you don't hold all the power (and are human like everyone else) and therefore empowers those working with you. It's ok for them not to know it all too and therefore may prompt questions that people may otherwise have been afraid to ask, leading to more open conversations, and strengthening relationships and trust. It can also mean that, when you are sure of answers, others know that they can trust you because you have previously shown that you would not say you knew something when you did not.

What skills do you need to be a good knowledge mobiliser? @AnnetteBoaz reckons connectivity, charm, inclusivity, empathy, creativity, integrity, curiosity, diplomacy and humility. Sounds very familar! #KMb2021 #ukkmbf2021

— Vicky Ward (@VLWard) March 22, 2021

Participants described this as a cyclical process, where feelings of imposter syndrome drive new learning, which increases your confidence to go into new situations that lead to fresh experiences of imposter syndrome, starting the cycle again. Forum members also emphasised the importance of operating as a team: the vast amount of skills required as a Knowledge Mobiliser (keynote speaker Annette Boaz mentioned connectivity, charm, inclusivity, empathy, creativity, integrity, curiosity, diplomacy and humility for starters), means it is almost impossible to develop these skills as an individual. Teams of Knowledge Mobilisers can bring these skills together and use different skills at the same time.

Moreover, acting like an imposter can be a valuable role: by communicating out of character a knowledge broker can help to make sense of differences in knowledge use. Adapting to the audience and stage required helps knowledge brokers to translate differences in performances between policymakers, practitioners and academics. Knowledge Mobilisers should not fear being an imposter but instead learn to embrace imposter syndrome!

If you are interested in learning more about imposter syndrome in knowledge mobilisation, take a look at:

• Travis’s PowerPoint presentation at the Canadian Knowledge Mobilization Forum sharing experiences, reflections and potential antecedents and consequences of imposter syndrome, as well as exploring ways to address this feeling (https://www.dropbox.com/s/x73adly7m3c1bid/Feeling%20Like%20and%20Imposter%2C%20and%20How%20to%20Overcome%20it.pptx?dl=0)
• Peter’s upcoming book chapter in Palgrave Handbook of ‘Imposter Syndrome’ in Higher Education (in print), reflecting on challenges in knowledge brokering through AskFuse, a rapid response and evaluation service run by Fuse, the Centre for Translational Research in Public Health, which caused feelings of being an imposter.
• Their joint poster can be accessed here: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/travis-szt_imposter-syndrome-in-knowledge-mobilisation-activity-6782473994651217920-XUud

Managing difficult conversations at work; ambulances, snow ploughs and submarines

Posted by Peter van der Graaf, AskFuse Research Manager / Fuse Knowledge Exchange Broker, Teesside University

We all face difficult conversations in our work; whether as a PhD student trying to tell a supervisor that they are not very helpful, or as post-doctoral researcher, explaining to your line manager that you really don’t want to take up any more teaching responsibilities. Or even as a practitioner having to point out to an esteemed researcher that their pet project is not relevant at all for your practice.

Like most people, I try to avoid these conversations as much as I can and prefer ‘flight’ rather than ‘fight’. Best to give in and avoid confrontation than have an uncomfortable row that will keep me up at night.

But could confrontations also be useful, and if so, how could you manage them in a way that they benefit you? This was the aim of the Courageous and Compelling Conversations Masterclass I attended in London as part of the NIHR Leadership Development Programme. Before starting the masterclass, I had to complete a self-assessment of my preferred response mode to confrontational conversations, which neatly confirmed my ‘flight’ status and gave me new labels for it: 60% Give In; 20% Run Away; and 20% Compromise.

What the masterclass taught me was that confrontation is not about preparing well for the other’s potential responses; for instance, by endlessly scripting clever and rational dialogues to counteract every accusation that a person could throw at me.

Instead, the course focused on better understanding my own response style in relation to other people. My light bulb moment was the realisation that you can’t control the response of the person you are talking to, but that you can manage yourself on how to respond, and take time to formulate this response during the conversation. Therefore, my nights (more preferably work hours) would be better spent understanding what I want to get out of the confrontation (outcome) and plan my conversations accordingly, instead of worrying what the other person will say and need.

During the course we were split into three groups, according to our preferred Motivation Value Style, with each group given its own emblem in the shape of a transport vehicle. Apparently, I am an ambulance, which is the symbol of the ‘carer’ group, who are motivated by the protection, growth and welfare of others. We prefer to ensure that everyone is happy, relationships are good and don’t want to be a burden to others. As an ambulance, I am responsive to other people’s needs and therefore go into conversations where I am needed (with blue lights if possible!).

In contrast, the ‘driver’ group (snow ploughs) - motivated by task accomplishment and achieving results - prefer to exercise persuasion. The third group, technicians (submarines) are different again in that they are motivated by meaningful order and thinking things through; they want to be practical and fair.

Although, these three styles feel quite stereotypical, I was surprised to see how much each of us on the course was conforming to these styles when explaining their behaviour in difficult conversations. We discovered that we incorporate elements of each style into our conversations but have a natural gravitas to a particular style. Realising your preferred style and working out the preferred style of your conversation partner, proved really helpful.

For example, someone who prefers to be a submarine (technician style), does not respond well to pressure to make an on the spot decision. Forcing them to agree to a solution at the end of the conversation will only escalate the confrontation. Instead, agreeing to give them time to mull the problem over and come back with a response later, will likely result in a much more favourable response and implementable solution.

Under stress, people tend to respond in either of two ways: they become more extreme in their preferred style (dig their heels in) or switch to a different style. What we were encouraged to do during the training course, was to play with different styles and practice switching during a confrontational conversation to a different style that would be more attuned to the person we were speaking to. In that sense, we are better able to manage ourselves and the responses we get from the person we are confronting.

A key part of this switching of styles was being assertive; not shouting over the other or ignoring what they say, but quite the opposite: taking more time to listen to the other and trying to understand what they say and where they are coming from. Are we really hearing what the other person is telling us or are we too busy trying to contain our emotions and constructing our next argument in our heads? Armed with this understanding, you will be better prepared to say what you think and feel, and, most importantly, what you want to happen.

As an ambulance, I need to be patient with submarines and focus on the practical, while being more competitive and assertive with snow ploughs, or team up with submarines to create new opportunities in joint conversation with snow ploughs.


Image:

1. 'Arguments' by Jeff Eaton via Flickr. Attribution-ShareAlike 2.0 Generic (CC BY-SA 2.0): https://www.flickr.com/photos/jeffeaton/7436909698